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View Full Version : Return to the traditional way?!



coachmac
11-27-2010, 10:43 PM
We've dabbled with it all: multiple-formation, rocket, jet, shotgun, etc.... Bought every hybrid wing t video.... Etc...

At this point I am asking who still runs or has gone back to the traditional
100/900 formation and hung your hat on buck, trap, belly, and the compliments and counters? And why?

I have found that our physicality and confidence has wained as we have added all the wing T additions: jet, rocket, a hundred formations, etc....

I am not knocking this approach. I completely get why it works but I'm just interested in hearing from the people who run base successfully and why they do?

Thanks

CoachNash
11-28-2010, 12:38 AM
We still run the base wing t. The only "new" thing we have added is the Jet. We are mostly a belly/power/counter team. A couple years ago, our head coach decided to try to spread.... it lasted two games then we went back to the good ole wing t. Here is why:

1. It is what the coaches know. Honestly, any offense works. They are all designed to score touchdowns. We happen to like the wing t because we know how to make adjustments out of it. Any idiot can buy a book and install the offense the author has written, but you had better know how to adjust.

2. We don't have superior talent. We play a lot of spread teams who are faster than us at every position. However, we usually beat them because we are better coached.

3. It is a physical offense. When we play these spread teams that are way faster than us.....we jam the ball down their throats. They usually run down the jet sweep, but then we trap the hell out of them.

4. We can run everything out of a couple formations. Most coaches say it's better to have multiple formations and i understand why they feel this way, however.....It's high school football. Several of the teams we play come out in some crap on defense that is completely unsound. They also rarely get lined up correctly if we switch formations on them. By using only a few formations, it is easier for us to see what the defense is trying to line up in. Once we have figured out what they are trying to do we can attack them accordingly. If we would come out in a ton of formations we would have a harder time attacking a defense because we have no idea where they are going to line up.

Coach Sadloch
11-28-2010, 11:09 AM
We have decided to go back to a more traditional attack next year. We ran some twenty series this year and 21-29 were sound football plays for us. They actually worked better than Jet. I think everything is ciclical (sp.). We also plan to use more 2 back sets and go back to the thing that made us successful in the late nineties and early 2000's.
I really believe if you have a stud back the jet and rocket are great additions to your offensive arsenal. With average backs the traditional way is the best way to go!

JWright
11-28-2010, 12:22 PM
Coaches
How many of you play schools with an enrollment of 2000 or more?
Coach Wright

trojan
11-28-2010, 11:38 PM
I love ADDING Jet & Rocket, as well as Jet & Rocket Motion, to our base Wing-T. ADDING them. We win or lose based on how well we execute the Buck and Belly series, and they are our focus (foci??).

I read a post on either bucksweep.com or coachhuey.com, and the coach said that they will run Rocket until the other team stops it. In my experience, we could run Jet/Rocket all day against the more clownish teams we might face (teams we could beat that year with ANY plays), but that won't make us a better team. We NEED Trap and Belly and Down and Bucksweep to beat the good teams, because the truly challenging teams have the speed to get to the edges.

We ran almost exclusively (85%+) out of either Red or 100 or some other TE right formation this year, and that simplicity helped us execute better.

Every year I tell myself that we are going to run fewer plays than the year before, with the goal being to execute those plays better. To find my list of plays, I start with Buck/Trap/Waggle, and then Belly/Down/Keep Pass/Tackle Trap. I always add the rest "later."

The traditional stuff is where it's at. ;)

CoachNash
11-29-2010, 12:04 AM
Coaches
How many of you play schools with an enrollment of 2000 or more?
Coach Wright

Our enrollment is around 2,100. We play schools with a similar enrollment.

lewjohnston
11-30-2010, 11:37 AM
I guess this is why Championship Productions asked me to do a set of dvd's on the "base" Wing T. I think a LOT of guys are looking to get back to the basics!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned as to a reason to run it is: there seem to be less teams over-all that are running it. I know at one point in the mid 90's, 5 of the 9 teams in our conference ran the Wing T. It was difficult to "surprise" teams since they'd already prepared for it 4 times! Now, 5 years later, there're only 2 teams in the entire region (4 conferences) that run it.
Secondly... the point was made earlier: it is a "System" of offense. There is a formula for attacking defenses and when a defense thinks they have the answer; you make the adjustment.
My Wing T mentor used to say: "You can stop some of it; but you can't stop all of it!" Find the weakness they've created and exploit it.
Finally, the base Wing T (as Tubby says in his book) is a style of offense that emphasizes a gruelling consistent ground game that builds a desire to dominate the opponent physically. The core of any football team is hardness.

Coach Sadloch
11-30-2010, 01:08 PM
I guess this is why Championship Productions asked me to do a set of dvd's on the "base" Wing T. I think a LOT of guys are looking to get back to the basics!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned as to a reason to run it is: there seem to be less teams over-all that are running it. I know at one point in the mid 90's, 5 of the 9 teams in our conference ran the Wing T. It was difficult to "surprise" teams since they'd already prepared for it 4 times! Now, 5 years later, there're only 2 teams in the entire region (4 conferences) that run it.
Secondly... the point was made earlier: it is a "System" of offense. There is a formula for attacking defenses and when a defense thinks they have the answer; you make the adjustment.
My Wing T mentor used to say: "You can stop some of it; but you can't stop all of it!" Find the weakness they've created and exploit it.
Finally, the base Wing T (as Tubby says in his book) is a style of offense that emphasizes a gruelling consistent ground game that builds a desire to dominate the opponent physically. The core of any football team is hardness.
Very well put Coach!

carolinacoach
11-30-2010, 01:17 PM
I guess this is why Championship Productions asked me to do a set of dvd's on the "base" Wing T. I think a LOT of guys are looking to get back to the basics!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned as to a reason to run it is: there seem to be less teams over-all that are running it. I know at one point in the mid 90's, 5 of the 9 teams in our conference ran the Wing T. It was difficult to "surprise" teams since they'd already prepared for it 4 times! Now, 5 years later, there're only 2 teams in the entire region (4 conferences) that run it.
Secondly... the point was made earlier: it is a "System" of offense. There is a formula for attacking defenses and when a defense thinks they have the answer; you make the adjustment.
My Wing T mentor used to say: "You can stop some of it; but you can't stop all of it!" Find the weakness they've created and exploit it.
Finally, the base Wing T (as Tubby says in his book) is a style of offense that emphasizes a gruelling consistent ground game that builds a desire to dominate the opponent physically. The core of any football team is hardness.

Coach,

I agree. I live in the Charlotte Metro Area with over 2.2 million people and there are hardly any wing-t teams. That I know of...Charlotte Catholic runs traditional wing-t (state title contender every year and are in the regional finals Friday) and the only other team that comes close to being old school wing-t is Shelby HS and they are 40 miles from Charlotte (also in a regional final). It is rare to see a true blue wing-t team nowadays and I feel that while coaches still may have a gameplan for it...opposing defense do not like the misdirection and physicality of being trapped, logged, kicked, cut, and doubled, along with chasing the wrong back all night :)

lewjohnston
11-30-2010, 02:41 PM
Amen!!!

JWright
11-30-2010, 03:20 PM
Coaches
I agree with all of the above posts there are right on.
Another thing to think about:
Multiple formations are not a factor in your teams execution curve. knowing how they line up is irrelevent if your team is taught to rule block. They will block in accordance to their rule.
Finally,
If your concern is the play calling, we only need to know how you defend the B gap and the perimeter. If reduced we attack outside. If spread then we attack you inside. All I need to do that is:
1. Have an inside play if I can block you and another if I can not.
2. Have an outside play if I can block you and another if I can not.

Mutliple formations allows us to now dictate how you defend the B gap and if we want to be a reduced or spread defense. Everything that you should be concerned with should be focused on execution. EVERYTHING. How you practice and how you play call. The final thing we have in place is answers for:
3rd and Long
2nd and Long
and for us these are decided before the game in accordance to field location. Design your playbook around these premises and see where it takes you. What you might discover this is the place for the counters (XX) jetlags and play-action passes etc. Everything needs to have its place and contributes to the execution curve of your offense. You playbook is being built with a rationale based on what is best for you and what your kids can execute.
I you can see that I do not subscribe to series and I am not doing this if you do that. It is not the best way and certainly not the only way, but it has served us well over the years and has allowed us to run the Wing in an area where NO ONE else does.
Good Luck
Coach Wright

CoachNash
11-30-2010, 06:35 PM
Coach Wright,
Your theory on how the B gap is defended sounds a lot like what NFL teams do in their run game. They basically only run Iso, Zone, Power, and Counter Trey, which gives them more time to tinker with match ups and the passing game.

The one thing I dislike about the wing t is that the base runs plays take so much time to put in. The details/timing needed to execute the base run plays are very "expensive" to me. I have seen many wing t teams, ours included, play teams that load up the box to stop the run because they can't throw. A prime example of this happened this year. A team that we played real close in the regular season went undefeated... in the regular season. They had about 2,000 yards on trap. They could trap any front imaginable, which they had to do because they couldn't pass. They lost in the first round of the playoffs because no one respected the pass. They saw 10 guys in the box all season, but had no answer for it in the playoffs when they played a team that was just as physical up front.

I understand completely how the wing t is supposed to work, however it's high school football. We see the most bastardized defenses than any level of football. I swear it would be easier to call an offense at the college or pro level. I am almost at the point where i think we should only run Belly, Counter, and power so we can focus on the pass game, and if we dont have a qb on the lot we can put in the option. I guess my question after this rant is, how do you come up with a system that can attack all weaknesses of the defense, and keep it simple enough to give your kids enough time to work on the pass game? I am the DC at my school so I have never had a shot at creating an offense like the one mentioned in my question.

tampabay
12-05-2010, 01:30 AM
This is a good post, the wing-t is like beer a little is good a lot will get you messed up, you do not want to be messed up when you are calling plays on Friday night. We do run a jet and rocket series, other than that we are pretty basic and ended up throwing out some things this year, even though they were solid plays within series - DBL Dive, and Quick Pitch come to mind. At the end of games against good teams we are running Buck Sweep - we also play in a 12 team split league that has no other wing-t or even counter type teams ,what an advanatge.

JWright
12-17-2010, 07:20 AM
Coaches
I was going through some old documents I had on the wing T and I came across an article by Tubby and the title of it was "The Modern Wing T". Here on this site we are now describing it as traditional wing t. There was a few things from the article that I found interesting and I think it sheds some light on wing t vs. hybrid wing t.
Here is what Tubby says wing t is:
1. Its basis is a four-back running
oriented offense with a balance of
passing achieved through play action
passes. Ends are used as spread
receivers
2. It makes use of shoulder blocking
as opposed to head or butt blocking.
3. It is a series or sequence football,
threatening several points of attack
with flow or misdirection.
4. It is designed to create defensive
player reacts to stop a particular play
he places himself in jeopardy for a
relate play.
5. It uses many formations and shifting. The formations
fall into two general categories: Those with a wing to the tight end and those with a slot.

IMO: If you are modifying these 5 items then you are hybrid not traditional:
1. Four back? I do not see any difference between the two there.
2. Shoulder blocking? Some of us use hands now.
3. misdirection and attacking several points and flanks? No difference there
4. Defensive player reaction? no difference there
5. Many formations and shifting? no difference there.
WOW!! Looks like to me there is nothing different between traditional and hybrid. How about we call it the Modern Wing T just like Tubby did.
FINAL NOTE:
What is Florida and Auburn's offense? Sounds like Wing T to me as well according to tubby.
Good Luck and Keep Winging it!!
Coach Wright

Spoofhounds
12-18-2010, 12:56 AM
I am amazed how many emails I get from coaches around the country that are always asking me, "coach is it true that you really just run two formations." I answer yes, 80-90 percent of the time we run 900 (we call it 100) and 300 which is a slot set with TE left, wing right, halfback left, split end right. We run Sweep, Trap, Counter XX, Belly, Belly Sweep, Down, Rocket to TE and Jet Pitch to split end. Our pass game is Waggle, Keep Pass and TE dump. That is what we do. You do not have to get fancy, run the system and try not to dabble in "Stuff", that you might think that you need. It has been great to us.

Coach Holt
Maryville Spoofhounds