Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Missing the Big Idea of FB Plays

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    41

    Default Missing the Big Idea of FB Plays

    We've had a lot of success running a Wing-T System for 3 years now. This season we're going to be blessed to have a real player at the FB position. He's a physical runner with above average speed, and great vision. In the past we've focused primarily on the Buck Series with a little Belly and Down to change things up occasionally, but for the most part every defensive coordinator knows you have to stop the Buck Sweep against us as priority #1. Part of the reason for that is because it feels like our FB game gets shut down so easily by defensive alignments. Normally we face at a minimum 8 man fronts that are in a TNT look - sometimes 9 or 10 man fronts. Weak side guard will be covered by a 3 Tech, there will be a Nose normally head up on our Center, and another 3 Tech on the strong side. This makes Trap very difficult to run. It also shuts down our Weak Side Belly play because we don't have a way to get up to the MLB since our C is covered. Down can get 3-4 at times, but in general it feels like our FB game gets taken out of the game quickly and we end up going to our Sweep, some Rocket or Jet stuff, Belly Pass, Quick Pitch. It feels like the defense can basically just dictate, "Ok, you want to put your best player at F, well I'll run a TNT 5-3, and force you to give the ball to some other kid who isn't going to burn as nearly as bad, or pass it. Curious for any insight anyone has on this issue.
    Last edited by GapDownBacker; 01-29-2019 at 01:22 PM.

  2. Default

    common problem.
    a GOOD DC will take the FB out of the equation. Force you to get out of your comfort zone.
    so,
    IMO, do the uncomfortable things! you want to run trap, buck, what about criss cross and waggle?
    criss cross isnt the home run threat because of the 8 in the box, but it does give a false key for the FB.
    waggle is the best pass play ever, dont even need to say much else.
    what else can you do to force the FB keys to be misread?
    offset him/plus or minus him,
    belly toss, counter, good plays off of that. can put him weak and run belly toss strong, put him strong and run counter weak.

    force the defense to find a new key.

    what would happen if you lined up in red/blue and put the FB next to a wing? either side,
    then ran jet/rocket sweep either way?
    you have 1 of the flanks out numbered and that is always the goal.

    can your qb run?
    line up in double wing empty (we call it rocky, where FB lines up wide like a wr)
    then we run normal offense but qb is now the FB.
    they cant line up in an 8 man box now.

    back to your bear front defense.
    where are the DE lined up? 5 techs? strong and weak?
    draw a line right down the middle of the offense, where do you have 1 man advantage?
    can you get to the infamous plus 1 that the defense always wants, by motioning to or away from strength?
    what does a nasty split by the TE do? what if he is split as a wr(double wing, double wr look)
    what if the wings were now slots(run and shoot look)
    cant 8 man box that, someone has to cover them, at least play inside eye,
    now your in a 6 man box with 1 lb.
    wedge and you win! hat for hat and you have a 1 man advantage (qb).

    get creative, dont attack walled cities, hit em where they aint.
    some games buck sweep isnt working, but power sweep is a killer. some times trap or belly is all you run because of the dum dum on the other side wont adjust.
    sometimes counter can be ran 10x some only 2.
    thats why the offense has stood the test of time,
    too many options for the offense.

    hope it helps

  3. #3

    Default

    You need to line up in unbalanced looks and run outside with buck sweep, jet, and rocket. Belly sweep or belly option and belly pass. Use jet motion and run Red Light play, which is nothing more than Down to the back in jet motion. If you want to run the FB other than running Down, run 41/49 option or 23/27 GT, which is the trap but a hole wider.

  4. #4

    Default Fullback

    Coach: I got the sense from your post that you wanted a way to get the ball to your Stud... not come up with other plays! Am I correct?
    With that in mind... You state that you focus on the Buck series... but you do NOT mention FB Trap. Was this an oversight? or... do you not run Trap? Don't let a TNT defensive front stop you from running Trap. Our Center makes a "down" call to the p-s Guard (which tells that G to come down and block the NT by himself) and the C goes back-side to cut off that 3 tech. If the C needs help, he calls down the b-s T with a "Charlie" call which tells the b-s T to "cut" the 3 tech. Then, the C can go up to b-s LB. The pulling G traps the p-s 3 tech and the p-s T is up on the LB.
    How much Down are you running? Once you establish Buck Sweep, you should be putting that DE in an "assignment conflict." Once he goes upfield (or steps out to take on the Wing), Down opens up! and... how much Belly to weak side? We "flash" the Wing across to fake Jet Sweep and then give to the FB coming off his hip to run Belly. Again, that TNT look is set up for X Block!"
    Finally. do you run Split 100/900 formation? Dive back to the TE side and run Belly or FB Power (with the HB kicking out) to that "nub" TE side (no Wing outside him.)
    A big stud like that needs the ball in his hands 12-15 times a game. Don't forget Waggle and tell your QB to "find" the "big guy" in the flat!
    Blessings,
    Lew

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    41

    Default

    I really appreciate all the feedback by everyone, thanks!

    mnike23:

    This has given me a lot to think about as far as varying things formation wise. My concern is that we start to lose some of our core plays as we start to vary formations. We've been a base 100/900 team, with a few wrinkles, but nothing too flashy. What you're describing sounds like going too far outside of what we trust, but maybe that is in fact the answer. Creehan has a video on stopping the 5-3, and a lot of what he has to say is what you're outlining: vary the formations and force them to adjust, especially if the main goal is to get the ball in the hands of our stud at FB; there are a lot of ways to get the ball to a back lined up directly behind the QB even if the Y and Wing aren't there or the Dive back.

    jsanny:

    Our main answer has been to run plays to the perimeter, but the issue there is that now the ball isn't in our stud's hands. I want the ball in our FBs hands as much as possible and if a team can just come out the gates and align a certain way and immediately factor out our best kid, that's what we want to avoid. I'm curious what the 23/27 GT is. It sounds like a good way to attack the Strong B, which we don't really have a good answer for.

    lewjohnston:

    Yes, we aren't really in the business of making new plays. Instead, we'd like to be able to run our base plays, but make them work in every situation. With how many teams hang their hats on the Belly, Trap and Down there's got to be an answer. I can't see these stalwart Wing-T coaches saying "Well...they're in a 5-3. Sorry Joey All-American FB, we're gonna be running Sweeps, Rockets and Belly Passes this game."

    We definitely will run trap - if it is there - meaning no 5-3 TNT Front. If in pre-game we happen to see our opponent going through their defensive alignments and they show a 4-4, we just start laughing because we know how badly they're going to get burned on Trap and Belly. I'm going to really try to break down what you're saying on those extra rules to deal with the TNT because the Trap is dynamite, and I almost write it out of the playbook once I see the 5-3 TNT, unless Sweeps are hitting so well that I'm confident there will be LB flow.

    We've had a lot of success with the Down and I expect it to continue. Against the 5-3 look, It's been a good play for us, so that is one that I feel good about as far as getting our FB the ball.

    We have found that we can't really run the Weak Side Belly against this front because the MLB is unaccounted for. Normally our Center would go up to pick up the middle backer, but since he's covered by the nose, we're able to pick up the OLB with the HB, but the MLB is unblocked and scrapes across to make the play. We try to have the BS guard get up to the MLB, but it's a really tough angle, especially if there is full backfield flow that way.

    We do run the Split 100/900 formation, and it has been our answer for how to run the Belly against 5-3s. We've actually been really successful with it. We have our Y go to the MLB, and everything else is pretty much the same. We never have run a FB power out of that, but I'd be curious to see what that looks like. So we could just end up running more out of Split 100/900, or doing some shifting to get into that formation more often.

    Again, thanks everyone for all your input, and I'd be grateful to hear what anyone else has to say on the topic.

  6. #6

    Default

    The play that was designed to defeat the Bear defense was Joker. I'll give you 1 scheme and you can run it off several plays. Red formation...fake Jet to the SE flank or use orbit motion or whatever you'd do on Belly. The FB will run the ball back to the right off RT. The TE blocks 1st LB inside; the RT blocks down on the 3; the RG blocks down on the Nose; the OC blocks away on the 3; the LG pulls and kicks out the 9; you need to pull either the LT or the slot to wall-off the Mike. If you pull the LT the slot blocks down on the 5; if you pull the slot the LT blocks the 5 which is easier to do. The FB steps are Crossover/Plant and put your left elbow up taking an outside HO from the the QB. His steps are deep 6" over the midline as on Belly; 2nd step flatten out then outside HO on the 3rd step looking back at the FB then continue to boot with hangs on your hips to the SE flank.

    If you run Belly to the SE flank with 2 backs you'll need to pull the tackle and the dive back fires straight ahead filling for him. You can run Buck XX using the same scheme the FB kicks out and the LG walls off. If you're afraid of the double handoff run Buck Scissors where the QB does all the ball handling taking 2 steps as on Buck Sweep and the handing off to the slot coming underneath with the FB kicking out and the BSG walling off. If they are great at reading your guards block back with the BSG and pull the BST on XX and Buck Scissors. If you are a Rocket team fake the Rocket toss and you can run Rocket Joker to the FB or Rocket Counter to the slot. In all cases where the FB is running the play he cannot rush his steps.

    From the same formation Lew mentioned bring the slot across and have him kick out the 9 tech. TE block 1st LB inside; double the 3 withthe PSG&PST; OC on the nose; BSG on the 3 etc. Lead the dive back as on Belly and have the FB take a Belly path. This is Power with no puller. I called it Blast. Same formation and motion now log the 9 with the slot/slide back and run Counter Boot the FB will be open in the flat or Belly KP with the dive back open in the flat. Line up with trips to the TE. If they leave the OLB inside they cannot cover Down Pass...the wing will be wide open in the flat. If the remove the OLB the TE will be wide open and Down will be a great play.

    Remember the Wing-T is a flank attack. You must establish that...Buck Sweep, Jet Sweep, Rocket Sweep etc. then the FB will open up. I think Belly Sweep to the TE would kill that defense. Go tackles over and run the Blast and now you have all your big guys on 1 side but keep all your eligibles.

    As always write or call if I can help. I'm leaving for the Glazier Clinic in Portland OR tomorrow. If you're there be sure to say hello.

    Rich Erdelyi

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    41

    Default

    Wow, Coach this is some good stuff! On the Joker play it feels like that FB would have to almost be going in slow motion for the Slot to get all the way across and seal off the MLB. Is there a pretty significant delay? Cross-over, plant doesn't seem like it would give the slot enough time. Obviously I've never seen it happen in real life, so I don't know what to expect.

    "If you run Belly to the SE flank with 2 backs you'll need to pull the tackle and the dive back fires straight ahead filling for him." I'm not 100% what you're referring to here. I interpret the Belly to be the Lead play, generally run to the SE flank. So why would we pull a the tackle on the Weak side?

    I'm a big fan of that blast play. That seems like a gem, and just what we're looking for.

    "Line up with trips to the TE. If they leave the OLB inside they cannot cover Down Pass...the wing will be wide open in the flat. If they remove the OLB the TE will be wide open and Down will be a great play." What does this Trips formation look like? Are you referring to true Trey, with a wide Slot, and the X wide and off the ball, or some kind of Bunch look?

    Wish I could be in Oregon, but not this time. I appreciate all the help!

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jhanes45 View Post
    I really appreciate all the feedback by everyone, thanks!

    mnike23:

    This has given me a lot to think about as far as varying things formation wise. My concern is that we start to lose some of our core plays as we start to vary formations. We've been a base 100/900 team, with a few wrinkles, but nothing too flashy. What you're describing sounds like going too far outside of what we trust, but maybe that is in fact the answer. Creehan has a video on stopping the 5-3, and a lot of what he has to say is what you're outlining: vary the formations and force them to adjust, especially if the main goal is to get the ball in the hands of our stud at FB; there are a lot of ways to get the ball to a back lined up directly behind the QB even if the Y and Wing aren't there or the Dive back.

    jsanny:

    Our main answer has been to run plays to the perimeter, but the issue there is that now the ball isn't in our stud's hands. I want the ball in our FBs hands as much as possible and if a team can just come out the gates and align a certain way and immediately factor out our best kid, that's what we want to avoid. I'm curious what the 23/27 GT is. It sounds like a good way to attack the Strong B, which we don't really have a good answer for.

    lewjohnston:

    Yes, we aren't really in the business of making new plays. Instead, we'd like to be able to run our base plays, but make them work in every situation. With how many teams hang their hats on the Belly, Trap and Down there's got to be an answer. I can't see these stalwart Wing-T coaches saying "Well...they're in a 5-3. Sorry Joey All-American FB, we're gonna be running Sweeps, Rockets and Belly Passes this game."

    We definitely will run trap - if it is there - meaning no 5-3 TNT Front. If in pre-game we happen to see our opponent going through their defensive alignments and they show a 4-4, we just start laughing because we know how badly they're going to get burned on Trap and Belly. I'm going to really try to break down what you're saying on those extra rules to deal with the TNT because the Trap is dynamite, and I almost write it out of the playbook once I see the 5-3 TNT, unless Sweeps are hitting so well that I'm confident there will be LB flow.

    We've had a lot of success with the Down and I expect it to continue. Against the 5-3 look, It's been a good play for us, so that is one that I feel good about as far as getting our FB the ball.

    We have found that we can't really run the Weak Side Belly against this front because the MLB is unaccounted for. Normally our Center would go up to pick up the middle backer, but since he's covered by the nose, we're able to pick up the OLB with the HB, but the MLB is unblocked and scrapes across to make the play. We try to have the BS guard get up to the MLB, but it's a really tough angle, especially if there is full backfield flow that way.

    We do run the Split 100/900 formation, and it has been our answer for how to run the Belly against 5-3s. We've actually been really successful with it. We have our Y go to the MLB, and everything else is pretty much the same. We never have run a FB power out of that, but I'd be curious to see what that looks like. So we could just end up running more out of Split 100/900, or doing some shifting to get into that formation more often.

    Again, thanks everyone for all your input, and I'd be grateful to hear what anyone else has to say on the topic.
    We also run Power to the FB from under center and we use jet motion with it. The QB and FB take the same steps as they do in Belly. On 23/27 Trap, we either use jet or buck sweep action in the back field. We would block the 5-3 bear by having the center, play side G & T block the away gap and pull the back side guard. The TE goes to the MLB and the wing blocks the stack LB.

  9. #9

    Default

    jsanny

    On your FB power who kicks the DE? The PSHB?

  10. #10

    Default

    I apologize for not being clear. If you wanted to run the FB Joker with 2 backs in the backfield it is a true G&T pull with the dive back filling straight ahead for the pulling tackle. It is a fine counter play off Belly action since the backfield action starts as full flow Belly especially if you use the deep orbit motion. The crossover/plant steps give the slot plenty of time to pull flat inside and make the wall-off block. Since he's 2 yards deep he actually gets on a better path than the tackle did. The FB definitely cannot rush the play and make sure he stays low and doesn't stand up on these steps. He's got to be a little bit of a dancer. The Redskins ran this with Riggins many years ago. When I was with the Pittsburgh Maulers in the USFL they called this blocking scheme Joker so I just kept it. The Patriots ran the Joker for the winning TD last week with a BSG pull and trap and the offset FB away from the hole as the lead/wall-off blocker.

    Another play that would be great which we ran in the late 90's early 2000's is Belly Bounce. From Red formation bring the slot in Jet motion and have him Slide and face the LOS at B gap...this is my Slide/Canadian motion. We would run Belly at the Bubble with the TE turning out the 9; Slide back on the OLB; PSG&PST double the 3 to the Mike. The FB runs Belly like normal. Now Belly Bounce...everyone does exactly the same except the TE/wing double the 9 to the OLB and the slide back goes around that double to the corner; the FB takes his Belly steps but bounces outside following the Slide back. We would now run Belly Keep Pass off this same motion with the wing blocking down on the 9; the Slide back runs an arrow to the flat; TE releases inside and runs the flag; FB has the OLB if he comes. The conflict that's created on the 9 and the corner is tremendous with these 3 plays.

    These would be simple adds and would get your best guy the ball and would put great stress on this defense. We sometimes need to think out of the box but always ask yourself "how expensive are these additions"? IMO these would be simple since your players already know the backfield action and would be valid vs. any defense but especially the 4-3 & 5-3.

    I hope I've clarified the Joker from 2 back and also given you some food for thought. I still have a ton of ideas I just ran out of years. As always write or call with questions. Glad to help if I can.

    Rich Erdelyi

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •